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 Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds

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Lorraine
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 1:55 pm

Well said Chicago Mark! And I agree with all of it! clap2

I'm totally with you that instead of just condemning, we should use opportunities like these to educate and enlighten people like Jeff and hopefully that will happen once he's out of the house. Again just to clarify, I was a Jeff and Jordan fan on BB11. His ignorance disgusted me as a person, and disappointed me as a fan.

ChicagoMark wrote:
I do not think that anyone can logically argue that Jeff's comments were NOT a symptom of "homophobia."

And yet several posters in this forum were trying to argue just that, which is why I was so fierce in my initial response. The thing fans need to realize is that we're not doing Jeff any favors by pretending he didn't mean what he said, or by (and this one really astounds me) pretending what he said wasn't homophobic. We can't educate or hope to change someone until we acknowledge the bigotry first. Can't solve a problem before you identify it right?

Thank you again Chicago Mark for your wonderful post!



Last edited by Nikolas on Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:05 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 1:57 pm

ChicagoMark wrote:
For me, it is not a question of liking or disliking Jeff. I do not think that anyone can logically argue that Jeff's comments were NOT a symptom of "homophobia." Homophobia is not limited to a fear of gay people, but includes a prejudice against gay people. This DOES not mean that Jeff is afraid of gay people or that he "hates" them. He did (as has been noted) reveal a prejudice that (unfortunately) many people have in our society. It may be a prejudice that he himself did not know that he had.

Rather than hating on someone for their (often unexamined) ignorance, it provides a great opportunity for all of us to examine our beliefs and where we may be out of integrity with logic, reason and investing in fear, stereotypes, and the discomfort of difference. There are few in society who would label themselves as bigoted, homophobic, ageist, chauvinistic, etc.; yet, it exists. The indictment is too strong, unsettling and ugly for most to even entertain the possibility that such possibilities exist underneath the surface. I think that most of us carry seeds or full-grown prejudice (often unexamined). If this is something that we would rather not claim, this is another opportunity to look in the mirror. What assumptions do I have that may be causing me to think less of people that are different than me?
If we simply indict, convict and punish people for expressing what they believe to be true (no matter how ignorant), we risk driving them underground, masking their beliefs in political correctness; as a result, we lose the opportunity to grow, evolve and learn.



As a gay man who continues to struggle with the hurt, rejection, anger and the whole range of emotions that comes with the inequalities in our society, I must continue to ask myself, "what would LOVE do?" If I expect OTHERS to be accepting, I must stay diligent in examining my own thoughts, words and actions in this regard. This does not mean that I look the other way. It means that I must do what I can to center myself and do whatever possible to come from a place of non-judgment before having the conversation that invites another to consider the truth of their assumption. I am far from perfect, but I am conscious of my work in that regard.

If you have Jeff on your show, I would love to speak with him about the seeds that may or may not be at the core of his assumption. My assumption is, like most of us, he is "good guy" doing what he knows, absent of any conscious malice and trying to make it in the world. That said, statements of this nature offer an incredible opportunity and it is my hope that Jeff (and all of us) will take it to consider how we can all be EVEN MORE effective as people. When we know better, we do better.

What would love do?


cheers clap2 Thank you Mark for saying what I was clumsily trying to say. I tried very hard to express this in my posts .

Quote :
If we simply indict, convict and punish people for expressing what they believe to be true (no matter how ignorant), we risk driving them underground, masking their beliefs in political correctness; as a result, we lose the opportunity to grow, evolve and learn.

This is exactly what I was trying to express. I saw none of that, only a ball of hatred that spiralled out of control to the point of ridiculousness. Let me give you one example. This is from a past hg. "I hate babies because they might grow up to be gay and become teachers...this is what Jeff believes". This did not help AT ALL. The posts I have seen on this forum TODAY far far far outweigh anything I have read on the subject thus far!! It is very much appreciated!!
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 1:59 pm

I agree with you 100% Nikolas. To look the other way is to deny ALL OF US (not just Jeff) an incredible opportunity. You cannot get beyond what you refuse to acknowledge.
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 2:05 pm

P.S. I thought you expressed it very well, Lorraine!
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 2:22 pm

I agree with you Mark.
I hoping I didn't sound like I was excusing him from what he said because that was not my intention. I was disgusted and disapointed with his rant because it was out of line and wrong. I also think that the fact he went to go explain and apologize to Kalia afterward so much so that Kalia didn't tell Lawon the truth about what their argument was about tells me something too.
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 3:36 pm

I find it interesting that the media and a lot of people are up in arms when no one else said anything in the HOH room. It was HOH lockdown. No one is passing judgement on them. Brendon and Shelly later on while practicing with the putt putt said the agreed with Jeff. Where is the Anarchy in the that. Can't be selective.

FYI You can judge me for all you want but this is our society things like this is said many and many of times. I am going to go out of a Limb big time, but I know I am sure that not a single person here can say that they did't make a ignorant comment in there life. Just because he is on a tv show doesnt make right for us to cast judgement. All I am saying we are human shit like this happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 3:46 pm

Yes, it is human behavior. It is not worthy of a death sentence. I do not believe, however, that simply dismissing it as such is going to help us in evolving to greater acceptance. Every time we simply "let it slide," (absent a conversation) we are supporting and sustaining ignorance. It is not about expecting perfection. It is about having the courage to examine the truth behind the assumptions (in ourselves and others). This does not define Jeff's character any more than any of our select words may define us. It does, however, exhibit a prejudice that he (and many in our society) holds. Why not take the opportunity that he unintentionally provided to examine it?
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 3:52 pm

Sadly Pj, this is always the case. Remember Dick and Jen? Not much outrage because of the love for Evel Dick. Remember Josh and Crazy James throwing ice water and pickles on Natalie? That was "cool" because most didnt care for her. Remember Crazy James lying completely naked next to Natalie, fondling himself and asking Natalie for a BJ? That was "cool" for the same reasons. It BLEW MY MIND the women who defended Crazy James actions because they "liked" him. UNFUCKINGREAL!! *getting pissed again..lol) Again, we tend to look the other way when its a woman who is being defamed. I hear the "C" word thrown around more in the BB house then anywhere else. Chima's remarks to Russell 2 seasons ago? Some outrage but because Chima wasnt liked. Its CLEARLY a double standard that we witness most every season on BB.
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 4:56 pm

Lorraine wrote:
Sadly Pj, this is always the case. Remember Dick and Jen? Not much outrage because of the love for Evel Dick. Remember Josh and Crazy James throwing ice water and pickles on Natalie? That was "cool" because most didnt care for her. Remember Crazy James lying completely naked next to Natalie, fondling himself and asking Natalie for a BJ? That was "cool" for the same reasons. It BLEW MY MIND the women who defended Crazy James actions because they "liked" him. UNFUCKINGREAL!! *getting pissed again..lol) Again, we tend to look the other way when its a woman who is being defamed. I hear the "C" word thrown around more in the BB house then anywhere else. Chima's remarks to Russell 2 seasons ago? Some outrage but because Chima wasnt liked. Its CLEARLY a double standard that we witness most every season on BB.

Exactly. Well said Lorraine (and Chicago Mark)!
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 5:04 pm

pajamajon wrote:
I find it interesting that the media and a lot of people are up in arms when no one else said anything in the HOH room. It was HOH lockdown. No one is passing judgement on them.

Actually, in my original post I wrote:

Quote :
It's disgusting too that Rachel, Brendan and Daniele just sat there without calling him on it. Unbelievable. .

No one is letting them off the hook either, but to complete my analogy from a few posts ago, this would be like if I killed someone and told a bunch of people and they did nothing. Sure they're guilty of not reporting me and that's pretty bad, but they're not as guilty or guiltier than I am because I KILLED SOMEONE. At the end of the day, the ethical debit of negligence and inaction is outweighed by the ethical debit of complicity and action. Not stepping up to correct something another party did that is wrong, is not the same as simply doing something that is wrong.

Everyone else was lame for not correcting Jeff (although since they're in a game of social strategy, one could argue they felt coerced into saying nothing to keep alliances and such intact) but that doesn't change the fact that he still believes that homosexuality and pedophilia are connected. No one else made that disturbing claim.

Instead of deflecting, why not deal with Jeff's comments? As ChicagoMark said, this doesn't mean Jeff is a horrible person who should be crucified, but calling him out on his ignorance is the first step to initiating a dialogue about it and educating Jeff when he gets out of the house (as I hope someone will).

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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 10:36 pm

I love your avatar, Nik!!!! Jen is a classic! Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 143808
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 11:13 pm

Thanks leahtahd! Jen was my favorite on BB8 even though she had zero game LOL.
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyWed Jul 13, 2011 11:16 pm

Nikolas wrote:
Thanks leahtahd! Jen was my favorite on BB8 even though she had zero game LOL.

She's so hilarious that she doesn't even need to have any sort of logical game!
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 14, 2011 12:04 am

It's understandable that people who aren't gay might not understand why Jeff's comments were indeed bigoted. Whether other HGs have made racist, misogynistic, or otherwise bigoted remarks in the past is largely irrelevant to what he actually said in this specific instance.

Granted, if a hated HG had said what he said, it would likely be less acceptable. If what Jeff said had been about another minority group, i.e., that they shouldn't be allowed around/in charge of children, it would likely be less acceptable. Homophobia is one of those last acceptable collections of prejudices about a group of people. In fact, some here seem to have said they find nothing objectionable about his statements.

"He was written to be gay?...That'd be perverted."
"He's in a school with little kids, you don't wanna make that guy gay."
"I don't think it's the right thing to have a little kids' book and have the headmaster...be gay."

Jeff is arguing, likely from ignorance rather than hateful malice, that because of their sexual orientation, gay people shouldn't be allowed around or in charge of children. He fears gay people being around children. That's homophobic, even if it wasn't meant to be hateful. It's certainly insulting. His fear is based upon ignorance, probably just accepting the usual defamatory rumors circulated about gay people. He's just repeating them. But he is repeating them, hopefully without thinking. We all know Jeff's not the sharpest knife and that's probably part of his appeal.

Also, I think if Jeff had made an equivalently racist or misogynistic comment, whatever apology he gave Kalia (which I didn't see, so I can't comment on it specifically) wouldn't be so readily accepted by everyone either. It's hard to tell whether such an apology in a unique, isolated environment, cameras "everywhere," playing a game, is really coming from a place of understanding why what he said was wrong or just smoothing over the bump in the road. If he came to an actual realization, I gladly welcome that, as a Jeff fan.

It's important to realize, though, that there's no rational justification to fear gay people being left alone with/in charge of children and that homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing. That's the main problem here--a false and insulting notion that gets perpetuated until people view it as "common sense."
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 14, 2011 2:18 am

Thanks Mechanical Bliss! Another excellent post that gets to the heart of the problem. clap2
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 14, 2011 6:27 am

First off let me welcome Nikolas to the forum and thanks for listening to our show!


Mechanical Bliss? Good to see you around!

You guys all had such good postings that don't incite anger but are more thought provoking.


What Jeff said was wrong and his defending of it was obvious to me that he is coming from a point of being uneducated rather than hateful.
What he said was ridiculous and I also agree it doesn't reflect on his character rather more reflecting and highlighting on his lack of knowledge on the matter.
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 14, 2011 2:49 pm

Thanks for the welcome back, Erika. I'm glad to be back and glad to see you and Lorraine back for another season. I actually remembered to buy my feeds through your site this year because BBADR is where it's at post-eviction.

I actually read Ragan's blog for the first time because he commented on this Jeff issue, and he did a good job of getting at the heart of the issue:

"Jeff–like most people–is programmed to think this way."

"I hope that he and others involved in this debate will realize that his words are not a reflection of whether or not Jeff is a “good” or “bad” person, and take this as an opportunity to think about the social practices, policies, and institutions that produce people with Jeff’s mindset."

"In other words, we are trained to only recognize sexuality as sexuality or EXCESSIVELY sexual when it’s NOT heterosexuality. Certainly, heterosexual teachers talk about their engagements, spouses, weddings, anniversaries, and family structures on a daily basis. Most of my heterosexual teachers had pictures of their partners on their school desks....The real question is two-fold: First, why DON’T we recognize heterosexuality AS sexuality in the classroom? Second, why do we strategically erase the positive contributions of gays and lesbians in history books and in literature?"

Source: http://ragan.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/my-reaction-to-jeffs-homophobic-rant/
(There's also a funny Shelly pic on there)

It's easy to be frustrated with Jeff because, really, he should know better. But because he's a product of what society teaches people about gays, because he's such a nice guy, and because he likely hasn't had many opportunities to knowingly get to know gay people in a context that would challenge what he's learned from a relatively homophobic society, he deserves patience. It's also easier because the underlying problem is complex and widespread and many don't even want to acknowledge it exists.
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PostSubject: Re: Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds   Jeff's Homophoic Rant on the Feeds - Page 2 EmptyThu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 pm

I wish everyone would read this thread....I think there are some people who could learn a whole lot and get themselves an education from our posters. smug
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